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Discussion: Happened to us

Posted Discussion
Sept. 5, 2020
stonecityorbin
3 posts
Happened to us
Dave, got a rule interpretation for you. This happened to us at a SSUSA tournament. Runner on third and two out. Pop up to the third baseman who catches the ball about a foot from third base in fair territory. Less than a couple seconds from the ball getting into his glove, he trips over third base and falls to the ground with the ball then rolling out of his glove (all still in fair territory). There was no move by the third baseman to remove the ball from his glove. Umpire calls the batter out. Is that the correct call?
Sept. 5, 2020
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3215 posts
Hi Jack ... I wasn't there to see it, but I'm going to make a couple of assumptions mixed in with opinions supporting same! ... This is an "umpire's judgment" call in the context of whether or not the 3B "completed the catch" before tripping, falling and losing the ball from the confines of his glove ... Completing the catch means having sufficient control over the ball, for sufficient time, to indicate a clean catch ... My assumption is that he did ... It takes more than an instant to do the three things (trip, fall, fumble) he did later and, unless he was juggling trying to get the ball under control, I've more than likely got a catch as an umpire ...

It would be a different conclusion if, for example, we banged into the fence, a base coach or another player and the ball was bouncing around the whole time ... It would also be a different ruling if the player's glove impacted the ground and caused the ball to pop out ... That's not stated in your fact pattern, but please see the NOTE in Rulebook Definition §1.10 on page 2 if that was the actual circumstance ... Good luck in St. George! ...

Sept. 6, 2020
stonecityorbin
3 posts
Hey Dave, thanks for adding the caveat about the player losing the ball when his glove impacted the ground as that is exactly what happened. And your sending me to Rulebook 1.10 confirms...no catch. Thanks for the prompt and thorough explanation.
Sept. 6, 2020
B.J.
808 posts
I agree with Dave that it's tough when you don't see the actual play... but the rule is very specific in it's wording .. and yes I take all rules literally as written

it does not say that the fielder glove has to impact the ground to cause him to drop it ...also no where in the rule does it state that it's a catch after holding the ball for a few seconds.. it states that the resulting release of the ball MUST BE VOLUNTARY .. and as you described the play the fielders release of the was the result of him tripping over the 3B bag..

I would have a no catch fair ball per your scenario as written

(NOTE: It is not a catch if a fielder, after he contacts the ball, collides with another player, umpire or a fence, or falls to the ground and loses possession of the ball as a result of the collision or falling to the ground.)
Sept. 7, 2020
grayhitter59
Men's 60
278 posts
ok let's try this one on. runner on second and third no outs, ground ball to shortstop he throws to first and batter/runner is out. runner on second heads to third, runner on third does not go home and is standing on third, when runner from second gets there. they both occupy third both standing on third at the same time. I wait to see who is going to step off first, neither moves I first tag the runner that was on third then the runner from second tries to go back to second I tag him while he's off the bag.

whats the call?

Dave just a FYI I did not argue the call LOL.

the umpires got together and only called one of the two runners out. the runner going from second to third.
Sept. 7, 2020
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3215 posts
Manny ... You get yourself in some odd places on a baseball diamond! ... I've got a "double play", with the batter-runner retired at 1st base on the 6-3 ground out and an out on the tag of the trailing runner attempting to return to 2nd base ... There is no force play at 2nd or 3rd at any time in your scenario, so the runner at 3rd is not required to vacate the base to advance ... He basically was there first and can stay (that's a non-technical term!) ... If two runners are occupying the same base, then the trailing runner is considered "In Jeopardy", or able to be tagged out, and must either retreat to the previous base or, if it is occupied (it wasn't), the leading runner must advance a base ... Umpires should be commended for a correct call in an unusual situation ...

Sept. 7, 2020
chico senior
Men's 60
131 posts
None of rulings can be considered correct until Wayne has his say.
Sept. 7, 2020
B.J.
808 posts
chico... lmao
Sept. 7, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
I don't have to be there to see it. [insert eyeroll] Simple call. As explained in the OP, no catch should be ruled as there was no voluntary release of the ball. Ball was touched over fair ground, so the ball remains live. Ground, fence, player, etc. have nothing to do as for what constitutes as a catch. A fielder can run 20 yards with the ball in his glove, but the out shouldn't be called until they actually have gone into the glove and taken the ball out.

MLB recently went with their interpretation that the fielder should have control of the ball when taking the ball out of the glove. Watching the Cubs/Cardinals game today, and the Cardinals CF didn't take the ball cleanly out of his glove. Watching it in real time, I actually thought he dropped the ball.

Get a pen and piece of paper bj, and write this down.

grayhitter59, two runners occupying the base at the same time, all that is required is to tag the trailing runner.

Happy now, chico?

Enjoy the fruits of the rest of your Labor Day.

Sept. 7, 2020
Omar Khayyam
1346 posts
Couple of interesting scenarios if ball is not caught until fielder voluntarily removes it from the glove.

1. Bases loaded, two away, batter hits a short fly ball. Left center fielder makes running shoestring catch, defensive team cheers, all runners were advancing but once ball is in glove, they veer toward the dugout and batter picks up his bat without going to first to also return to get his glove to play defense. Fielder keeps running, intending to toss the ball to the ump before going in to hit, trips on second base, falls to ground, mitt hits ground, rolls out—live ball! Shortstop could retrieve ball and throw home or to first, but he has also vacated field and is in his dugout! Players return to every base to touch and advance but third base runner has gone to first base side dugout and doesn't see what is happening.

2. Bases loaded, no outs, batter hits short fly. Left center fielder playing deep makes running shoestring catch, defensive team cheers, all runners hold their base to wait for next batter, hitter does not run to first but returns to retrieve his bat and head for the dugout. Fielder's momentum keeps him running for about 30 feet, steps in gopher hole, falls to ground, ball bounces out. Live ball! Everyone takes off as ball rolls toward left field. Left fielder comes rushing in to check on teammate who is still lying on ground, all runners on base keep running home as ball lies in left field. Where is the batter? In the dugout, hanging up his bat.
Sept. 8, 2020
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
Omar, two things to remember. 1) Runners may legally advance when the ball is first touched in flight. 2) Never leave the playing field until the umpire signals catch/no catch.
Sept. 8, 2020
B.J.
808 posts
omar, yes I have always IMO thought the rule as written leaves many gray areas for allowing different scenarios to occur... ASA usually has more specific wording of their rules and many times they give an effect of what they expect of the rule... below is there wording for a catch and as you can see it covers your scenarios and takes any doubt about what a catch is... one other thing ASA spells out and explains is how an OF running in and basically sliding and catching a fly ball in his belly is not a catch until the ball is in the grasp of the fielder’s hand(s) or glove. SSUSA just says that a batted or thrown ball caught with anything other than the fielders hand(s) or glove in its proper place is an illegal catch... there is another argument by the offense just waiting to happen saying that it's not a LEGAL catch

CATCH/NO CATCH:
A. A catch is a legally caught ball, which occurs when the fielder catches a batted, pitched or thrown ball with the hand(s) or glove/mitt.
1. To establish a valid catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove control of it and/or that the release of the ball is voluntary.
2. If the ball is merely held in the fielder’s arm(s) or prevented from dropping to the ground by some part of the fielder’s body, equipment or clothing, the catch is not completed until the ball is in the grasp of the fielder’s
hand(s) or glove.
3. The fielder’s feet must be within the field of play, touching the “out of play” line or in the air after leaving live ball territory in order to have a valid catch. A player who is “out of play” and returns must have both feet touching live ball territory or one foot touching and the other in the
air, for the catch to be legal.

B. It is not a catch:
1. If a fielder, while gaining control, collides with another player, umpire or a fence, or falls to the ground and drops the ball as a result of the collision or falling to the ground.
2. If a ball strikes anything other than a defensive player while it is in flight is the same as if it struck the ground.
3. When a fielder catches a batted or thrown ball with anything other than the hand(s) or glove in its proper place.
Sept. 8, 2020
bkb555
269 posts
unlike the NFL, the ground CAN cause a fumble in softball
Sept. 8, 2020
Omar Khayyam
1346 posts
Thanks Wayne and B.J.. Now I will wait until it happens in a game that I'm involved in. LOL
Sept. 8, 2020
titanhd
Men's 60
595 posts
Wayne "A fielder can run 20 yards with the ball in his glove, but the out shouldn't be called until they actually have gone into the glove and taken the ball out"



I have caught a ball in the outfield for the third out of the inning and carried the ball all the way into our dugout from the outfield without taking the ball out of my glove. Are you stating that we don't have an OUT?!
Sept. 9, 2020
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3215 posts
StonecityJack ... Sorry I didn't keep an eye on this thread as it meandered far astray from your original simple inquiry and got insulting in the process ... If you've got any followup, you know you can e-mail or call me anytime ... Good luck in St. George!
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