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Discussion: When Is It Bat Altering?

Posted Discussion
Nov. 8, 2014
Bubble Gum
122 posts
When Is It Bat Altering?
YES,
I know about bat shaving and rolling being illegal.

But what I'm interested about is at the handle and knob side of the bat.

Is it altering....

When 1 or more knob cuffs are placed on the bat?
When the original grip is replaced with tape or rubber covering?
When the knob itself has a weight or covering over it?
When the grip is covered with layers and layers of tape to make it much thicker?
When small weights are added to the grip?
Any other changes to the handle or knob?

Is all of the above altering?
Is none of the above altering?












Nov. 8, 2014
taits
Men's 65
4548 posts

My view on it
Rule 3.4(5) covers it
1. one knob cuff ok
2. ok No more than two layers of tape.
3. illegal
4. illegal
5. illegal
6. I think that would depend on what was done...but most likely illegal.

Reads like you have done all of them already.
Nov. 8, 2014
DOLFAN
81 posts
I would say "not at all" to all of them because these are not the surface (bat hitting zone)that the ball is hitting.
Those things you mentioned to not make the ball act differently!
Nov. 8, 2014
BigTuna
18 posts
No to all listed since neither alter the BPF rating of the bat? But I think the weights would be an issue and for safety there has to be at least 1/4 of knob in most sanctions.
Nov. 9, 2014
obagain
Men's 50
71 posts
Adding any weight to any area of the bat does change it, if it didn't why add weight ?
Using tape to make a taper should be legal but no one knows what is under there so I understand why they don't allow it.
Nov. 9, 2014
titanhd
Men's 50
549 posts
ok to use two knob cuffs.

We have not changed our position on this, but rather have simply issued a clarification in response to a specific inquiry ... Someone has misquoted, or you have misunderstood, what we stated ...

A second knob/flare is allowable, so long as it is commercially manufactured as a bat knob/flare AND so long as it is secured with tape not to exceed a thickness of two wraps around the knob/flare ... However, "building" a knob with athletic (or any other type) tape is not permitted.
Nov. 9, 2014
BruceinGa
Men's 70
3182 posts
It all comes downs to what the umpires allow.
Nov. 9, 2014
E6 in AZ
Men's 50
86 posts
Okay tell me this, I have yet to see any pine tar used but I have seen the cans of spray adhesive. Is it due to the convenience of the can or some other reasoning?
Just askin.
Nov. 9, 2014
ju25
Men's 60
206 posts
Pine tar is messy!
Nov. 9, 2014
BruceinGa
Men's 70
3182 posts
I use Cramer's and/or Evil Grip. I've never used spray.
Nov. 9, 2014
CallaVett
Men's 50
61 posts
Anything that adds weight to knob changes the bat's MOI thus changing its performance and is illegal.
Nov. 9, 2014
0
69 posts
Should anybody caught with changing the Knob or Handle, as mentioned above, be subject to the same consequenses as a person caught using a shaved bat?
Nov. 9, 2014
ju25
Men's 60
206 posts
I thought it was weight at the end of the bat that changes the Moment of Inertia. Weight in the handle slows your hands down. After the Ultra got banned and some aluminum bats had to be recertified they started adding weight to the handles (rods,etc.)to tone the bats down. I remember a bat doctor around here who used to remove the rods and add weight to the end of the bat.
Nov. 9, 2014
bkb555
230 posts
the only thing the adding the weight to the handles in the re-certification debacle was to change the balance point of the bat....it decreased end load which may or may not have changed MOI or any other physics term, but bat performance remained the same in terms of bat and ball contact
Nov. 10, 2014
Clean Up
68 posts
It seems to me that adding or losing wieght on the handle end of the bat is about the same as what the bat companies are already doing when they put out 2 and 3 versions of the same bat.

Example: The Miken Ultra II, 2 piece are now in 3 versions Balanced, End Load and The Big Cat.

OR 3 versions of the Dudley Lightning Legends Balanced, 13 inch barrel and the 12 inch barrel.
Nov. 10, 2014
CallaVett
Men's 50
61 posts
The rule on altered equipment doesn't say enhance or increase performance. It simply says change the physical characteristics; adding weight to the knob changes a physical characteristic of the bat, its MOI. The added weight may not enhance performance but it is still an altered bat by the rules.
Nov. 10, 2014
joel 1975
131 posts
Ive heard if you paint the end of the barrel where it wears off the most that is altering the bat .How could this help the bat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nov. 10, 2014
AJC
Men's 60
123 posts
The issue of the end of the bat painted would look like a repair to the end of the bat has been made. This could be needed if someone damaged the end of the bat when trying to pry off the end cap to have it shaved.

Why paint the end of a composite bat, scuff marks or missing some of the original finish will not diminish the durability of a composite bat.
Nov. 12, 2014
joel 1975
131 posts
im sure it has something to do with selling them on ebay!!!!!!!!!!!
Nov. 12, 2014
AJC
Men's 60
123 posts
It has nothing to do with selling them on EBAY. You can paint flames on them and dip them in chocolate as long as disclose what your selling and someone is willing to lay out the money for it. The potential problem in reference to your question " if a bat is painted on the end " is if the home plate umpire suspects your bat has been tampered with, he can toss it !
Nov. 12, 2014
neck10
678 posts
O yes it does Ive bought bats off ebay that have been touched up on the end's you cant tell it from most pictures makes bat look newer in better shape.We had an umpire kick bat out that had a lot of paint missing from down by end cap, said excessive wear.
Nov. 12, 2014
AJC
Men's 60
123 posts
Neck, it is not " illegal " to sell bats which are not legal for different sanctions. On EBAY you can find purportedly Ultra II'S re finished or re labeled as Freak 98's. There are bats being offered as rolled and shaved. EBAY is allowing these to be listed and sold and I have not heard of this practice being deemed illegal even tho these bats are not legal for game use. They get around the law by saying these are for batting practice only.

As far as buying used bats from EBAY, buyer beware. I wouldnt buy a used bat that I couldn't inspect in person.
Nov. 12, 2014
garyheifner
573 posts
How about a knob cuff with two layers of tape over it. By the above, should be legal.
Nov. 13, 2014
joel 1975
131 posts
except for lead off hitter from windy city
Nov. 13, 2014
joel 1975
131 posts
I wasn't concerned about it being illegal you can just make a used bat look a lot newer with a little paint.if the bats not what the seller says it is ebay will get your money back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nov. 13, 2014
OZ40
421 posts
I use spray adhesive on my gloves. I use the 3M automotive or Mr. Gasket spray adhesive. It works as good or better than the smaller cans of Spray Tack and you get a ton more for about the same price.

I used to use the Cramer Firm Grip paste in the tube but it is almost impossible to find now.

I told a friend of mine that rolling a bat was illegal and he said it wasn't, and claimed he was just breaking it in faster.

I value playing softball more than I need a good deal on a used eBay bat that I don't know if it's been tampered with. You don't want to find that out in a sactioned event.
Nov. 13, 2014
Pull My Finger
81 posts
OZ40

Would it be Bat Altering if you sprayed that 3M stuff on the barrel of the bat?




Nov. 13, 2014
BruceAZ
Men's 60
153 posts
I just came from the Winter Worlds manger meeting and Dave Dowell from SSUSA said that spraying adhesive on the barrel of the bat is altering it and if caught you would get suspended. I guess there was a problem in the Florida Worlds, guys spraying their bats to make the barrels tacky just like the Dudley Lightning. So yes, to PM Finger's question, it is illegal.
Nov. 14, 2014
Home Plate
34 posts
A few years ago I heard of a guy that would buy a 26 ounce bat and would put about 2-2.5 ounces of weight on it, making it weigh just under 29 ounces. He figured that as he played in a tournament he would need to use a lighter bat as he would fatigue on the last days of the tourney. So he would take some of the weights off during the tourney, eventually bringing the bat down to it's original weight by the end of the last day. It's much more economical (cheaper) to change the weight of 1 bat than to buy 2 or 3 bats of various weights.







Nov. 14, 2014
BruceinGa
Men's 70
3182 posts
Home Plate, that guy should have added the weights to his batting gloves, that would have been "legal". No weight would have been added to the bat, making it altered.
Nov. 14, 2014
Home Plate
34 posts
BruceinGa

Good Idea.

But I wonder if that would actually be the same as altering the mass weight of the bat when it contacts the ball?

Does anyone out there know if wearing heavier batting gloves would be the same as swinging a heavier bat?

Nov. 14, 2014
joel 1975
131 posts
I used to buy 30 oz bats that nobody wanted anymore pop thr pin out cut it in half or to the weight I needed then put pin back in handle the same thing miken does to get you the weight you desire, doesn't help the performance of bat but sure helps the ole men!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!changing to tape on handle is altering the bat. that's BS
Nov. 14, 2014
joel 1975
131 posts
I used to buy 30 oz bats that nobody wanted anymore pop thr pin out cut it in half or to the weight I needed then put pin back in handle the same thing miken does to get you the weight you desire, doesn't help the performance of bat but sure helps the ole men!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!changing to tape on handle is altering the bat. that's BS
Nov. 14, 2014
Lefty
Men's 70
685 posts
or a 6'5" 250 pound hitter compared to a 5'8" 180 pound hitter, Would the bigger and heavier hitter be altering the bat. We know all 28oz bats don't weigth 28ounses.
Nov. 14, 2014
joel 1975
131 posts
this is true most bats don't weigh what there marked.I think personaly the only true altered bats are the one's shaved or painted as something else.
Nov. 14, 2014
BruceinGa
Men's 70
3182 posts
I've wondered if adding a couple of ounces of lead weights to your batting glove when using a 28 would be the same as a 30 ounce bat. Of course it depends if the extra ounces of the 30oz bat were added to the knob in the form of a rod and not to the endcap. At one time the heavier Mikens had a longer rod in the handle.
Nov. 14, 2014
neck10
678 posts
rolling a bat is illegal don't see why but it is seems to me your just breaking it in faster &even it's illegal to hit them against a pole or tree (real smart) don't know how the rolling machine's work but there's guy's that swear by them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nov. 14, 2014
Az Iz
64 posts
I doubt that adding weight to your batting gloves will change anything as far as transfering weight to the ball. Although the hands are connected to the bat they are only linked by grip which can vary depending on how tight you hold the grip and not mechanically linked. Adding 2 ounces of weight to your hands would mean your adding 1 ounce to each hand, but it won't make the bat itself swing any heavier.

Nov. 14, 2014
DCPete
369 posts
Don't know for sure if it's true, but have been told that rolling the bat extends the sweet spot beyond what it would normally be which makes it illegal/altered.
Nov. 14, 2014
stick8
1718 posts
I've never heard of anyone adding weight to their batting gloves. How in earth would one do that?
Nov. 14, 2014
hurler
17 posts
dc if that is true I would agree that that is altering the bat but never heard that be fore.
Nov. 14, 2014
DCPete
369 posts
Maybe someone that knows or owns a rolling machine can set the record straight. Never seen a roller but thinking it's probably as long as the bats so it would be able to roll up & down the entire length of the barrel and actually could extend the sweet spot in both directions?
Nov. 15, 2014
BruceinGa
Men's 70
3182 posts
Stick, I haven't tried that because I would rather have the weight at the end of the bat.
But, if someone liked the balanced feel, I'm sure with a little ingenuity one could figure how to sew or use Velcro to attach an ounce or two to a batting glove.
Nov. 15, 2014
ju25
Men's 60
206 posts
DC try this site:http://www.batrollers.com/. Unlike endloading which increases MOI, I do not see any performance advantage in weight in the hands or handle. Bat doctor said the longest rod he took out of a bat came from a 30oz. Launch(5")
Nov. 15, 2014
jfsully
52 posts
Interesting study on Enhanced break-in techniques (may answer the rolling question):

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/abi.html
Nov. 15, 2014
mad dog
Men's 65
4172 posts
bruce they actually have weighted batting gloves(fingerless)....wade boggs endorses a pair....you put up to 8 oz in them....they are mostly for workout,but i wouldn't see a prol with using them if ya want.....i use them when i do my macenko bat speed drill,hitting off a tee..and sometimes when doing live bp......

ju25...touching a bat to make its performance better is illegal..and that is to include rolling of any sort....rolling will enhance the sweet spot of a bat by making it larger..hence the performance enhancing....
Nov. 15, 2014
ju25
Men's 60
206 posts
mad dog, I posted the bat rolling site for DC because he said he had never seen a roller before. I know that anything besides bp, that increases performance is illegal. If you need to enhance the performance of a composite bat , it's time to find another hobby. Anybody remember the turbo slot batting gloves which were supposed to increase bat speed?
Nov. 15, 2014
mad dog
Men's 65
4172 posts
otay ju25......yes i bought a pair when they first came out....didn't see any difference personally...can see where they might help tho...by getting the bat out of the deep v between the thumb and first finger.....
Nov. 16, 2014
OZ40
421 posts
Reply to: Pull my Finger:

I use it on my gloves for better grip not on the bat and especially not on the barrel. If you saw a pair of my gloves after using that stuff for a while it builds up an uneven surface. If you were to use it on the barrel dirt and gravel would stick to it when you set the bat down to run the bases after hitting the ball.

ASA makes you put a ring of tape around any type of aftermarket knob cuff so I would have to believe all softball associations would be in favor of better grip from a safety standpoint.
Nov. 17, 2014
Az Iz
64 posts

SSUSA...

The above message is a case of blantant
"BATTING GLOVE ALTERING" and abuse.

IT NEEDS YOUR IMMEDIATE AND FULL ATTENTION.....

ASAP!











Nov. 17, 2014
Snot Nose Kid
67 posts
Batting Glove Abuse??

We need an investigation.
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