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Discussion: Sun rule

Posted Discussion
Dec. 1, 2016
sslver400
2 posts
Sun rule
Heard that the rule where a batter can request the pitcher move due to the sun in the eyes may go away this season.

While in Phoenix, I saw three batters strike out swinging in a row during a situation where it definitely affected the game's outcome. This happened even as both manager's requested that the pitcher move at the batter's request.

I know all pitchers will defend it as we also battle wind, but we cannot change the wind. We can definetely make it safe for the pitchers but don't penalize the hitters that cannot see the ball.

Just my opinion

Dec. 1, 2016
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1221 posts
I was in two of these games.... just a few thoughts.. I think it worked better than doing nothing at all, and I think if you wanted to be a little more effective you could make pitcher go to 8 feet from either side... part of the problem for the hitters in my games was trying to figure the angle... also, I would say that the batter should be able to request another side during his at bat if he found he couldn't see from his first choice... other than that it was a better option than not moving at all...
Dec. 1, 2016
Dbax
Men's 60
1864 posts
If the sun is in the batters eyes, it is only temporary. It's part of the game. Get rid of this ridiculous rule.

Banned in Arizona
Dec. 1, 2016
NYGNYY
137 posts
Dbax did you play in those games in Phoenix? If you did you would have know that it lasted a full game and a half. I played at field 3 at Papago at 2 & 3:30 and both games were a nightmare. So before you make a post understand the situation
Dec. 1, 2016
Dbax
Men's 60
1864 posts
It's part of the game. Just like an outfielder having the sun in his eyes. Oh well. And how can the sun be in a batters eye a game and a half? Did the earth stop rotating?
Dec. 1, 2016
Omar Khayyam
1329 posts
Dbax, you're not thinking this through. I had just such a game at Palm Springs. It was February. The sun was low. The teams on the field before us said it was hard to see the ball coming in and theirs was consequently a low-scoring game. I was pitching and the sun was at my back. I pitched the entire game by slightly changing the arc of my ball so that it kept coming out of the sun. One of the best games I ever had against a higher-ranked team (Major Plus) with 9 strikeouts and won the game 5 to 1.

Was it a fun game for either side? Of course not! These kind of games are ludicrous. This is not just a field with the sun in a left-handed batter's eyes, for example. It was a cloudless day and a low winter sun, with no background trees to block the sun. The single run they scored was a home run which the batter admitted he hit by just hoping and swinging hard. Our runs were helped by a less effective opposing pitcher and a shared pair of welders' glasses.

I think TDs are negligent when they schedule such games on these fields. It's not dangerous for the defensive team nor for the batting team (it is slow pitch, after all). But it's not really softball as meant to be played. I'm not proud of my strikeouts or the win, other than my ability to be consistent with my "sun ball".

I have similar adamant opinions about games scheduled with the reverse conditions that blind pitcher, short, rover up the middle, second, left center and right center fields. The pitcher can request a screen, but the other fielders are in a dangerous position. Solution: don't schedule such dangerous conditions. Either find another empty field or delay the game until the sun goes down or rises higher, whichever is pertinent, Our team no longer goes to such tournaments where the TD uses these poorly-designed sun fields—dangerous on one field or ridiculous on the diagonally opposite field.
Dec. 2, 2016
Dbax
Men's 60
1864 posts
Ok Omar, you convinced me. My point is, again, that it is part of the game. Just like windy conditions. If the sun is in the pitchers eyes, and it presents a dangerous condition, that is a different story. I agree with delaying the game. But a batter is in no danger of not seeing the ball.
Last time I played in a game where the sun was in the pitchers eyes, the pitcher was moved one way or the other and both teams tried to hit the ball right up the middle. It was a joke.
Dec. 2, 2016
nickname36
57 posts
Are you freaking serious, A SUN RULE!!!!!!!
Learn to play the game as it was meant to be played, IN THE ELEMENTS!!!!! Weather it be the sun, the wind or whatever comes up. What would happen to you wimps if it rained alittle, or are you made out of toilet paper!!!!!!
Some of you guys are turning into such pu$$y's...

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH Dbax ITS PART OF THE GAME, GROW A PAIR AND LEARN TO DEAL WITH IT!!!!
Dec. 2, 2016
sslver400
2 posts
Hitting up the middle is also part of the game....but you maybe one of those pitchers that pitch you short then cry when the ball comes their way...
Dec. 2, 2016
Chief144
Men's 70
140 posts
As a pitcher I can relate to the sun rule & the sometime benefit of delaying the game to protect the pitcher.
I also know that sometimes I make a pitch & know it is coming back at me. No problem with that.
However, when you have a M+ team playing a AAA team & coming up the middle 9 times in 5 innings, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT! I was hit 5 times & not one word from the hitters! It was a seeding game in St George & they were beating us by 10+ runs. They said because we were not playing a rover, "the middle was open"! If they wanted batting practice, go somewhere else!

If that is "crying", so be it!

Dec. 2, 2016
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1221 posts
Hey Turtle man.. can't agree with you more OMAR...
Games like this shouldn't even be played IMO>. but if the directors have to get games in, the Rule works.. like I said, we had to play in two games at winter worlds and it was tough.. even with the new rule, some players still struck out. My team stopped going to BLD for TOC Northcal because the director put us on the sun field 3 years in a row.. I would rather spend time with the family than try and hit in that crap. We stopped playing in it last season... Nickname 36, I would challenge you to come up to my team and challenge their manhood... end of story!
Dec. 3, 2016
#19
Men's 70
302 posts
Yes, Chief144, that is crying! Lots of alternatives for you. Sit on the bench, pick daisies, be the scorekeeper or bat boy, and on and on and on!
Dec. 3, 2016
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2861 posts
The SSUSA National Rules Committee has settled this issue. See the Minutes from this year's sessions available from this web site.
Dec. 3, 2016
Duke
Men's 65
888 posts
The rule for the pitcher to move so the batter can see the pitch has been repealed.

Andy Smith,
65 Major
Dec. 3, 2016
stick8
1784 posts
Maybe it's a different rule but the sun rule I'm familiar with is one where the sun is directly in the fielders, notably the pitcher, eyes.
Dec. 3, 2016
SSUSA Staff
2904 posts
The amendment made to the pitcher's sun rule last year, to expand that to batters, was repealed ... The language added last year, and repealed this year, is in strikeout text below:
__________

6.16WIND OR SUN AFFECTING BOTH PITCHERS OR SUN AFFECTING BATTERS

A. PITCHERS: In significantly windy conditions, if, in the judgment of the umpire, the wind is having a discernible adverse effect on the accuracy of both pitchers, the umpire may declare that only strikes count. In the case of sun interference potentially affecting the pitcher’s safety, the umpire may invoke a short suspension of play.

B. BATTERS: If in the judgment of the umpire, the sun is adversely affecting the ability of batters to see the ball, the umpire may request that the field director allow the pitcher to pitch from up to six feet on either side of the pitching rubber, on the side chosen by the batter. EFFECT: Softball is an outdoor game played in the elements. Sun position affecting the batter is not a potential safety issue and shall not be the basis for a suspension of play. The decision of the field director granting or denying the request is final and not subject to protest or appeal. If the request is granted, the option shall be imposed only at the top of a new inning and applied on a full inning basis only.

Dec. 4, 2016
Sisavic
179 posts
Rationale? I am very surprised - no, shocked - with SSUSA's reversal. I played with the pre-2016 rule and went through a few innings of strikeouts - this is not a "normal part of the game." Where does it say that trying to hit a ball in the blinding sun is "normal." In fact, many tournament directors in places like Sacramento and St George do not schedule games in the sun fields.

More importantly, the pre-2016 rule is inherently unfair. The worst part of the sun-problem usually lasts for a few minutes which means that some teams have three innings of blinding sun while their competitors have only two innings. This is not theoretical; two years ago we lost a crucial bracket game to a team that we easily beat in the round robin mainly due to us having three innings of strikeouts and them getting a non-strike-out-inning and scoring 5 runs.

This reversal is particularly disappointing because how well the 2016 version of the rule worked in Phoenix last month. This is a major step backwards.

Dave, what is the rationale for the reversal?

Dec. 4, 2016
Chief144
Men's 70
140 posts
#19 - What position do you play? If you don't pitch, may I suggest you get on the mound & see how you like it! If you are a pitcher, then good for you.
Dec. 4, 2016
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2861 posts
Sisavic ... I can only share my own observations and opinion on the principal rationale for the repeal since I didn't speak to the matter when it was open for what turned out to be a very short discussion on the motion to repeal ...

My sense of the Committee's stance (as evidenced by the unanimous 13-0 vote) appeared to be: [1] Softball is an outdoor game and to legislate rules against the non-safety-risk natural environmental elements is improper; [2] Requiring the pitcher to move from his normal delivery position is an unreasonable mandate that disrupts the pitcher's normal delivery routine and defensive posture; [3] Moving the pitcher distorts the strike mat/zone functional dimensions to something other than a 90° positioned, straight-ahead 19" by 34½" rectangular target; and [4] Rule Book §6.16 was designed to protect pitchers when the sun position creates a safety risk to the pitcher, but there is no analogous safety risk to batters (or their batting averages) justifying retaining the rule ...

NOTE: There was no commentary presented by any members of the Committee, or the public observers, in favor of retaining the 2015 rule ...

Dec. 4, 2016
Bballer3
21 posts
Hey Dave,

This was the committee's best ruling in a long time.Played in a so called "sun game" this year. Both pitchers had an impossible task of hitting the mat when they were pitching from an angle and the mat was not. When the pitcher brought it up to the umpire the ump clearly did not know what to do and left the mat straight. This resulted in both pitchers walking the park and BOTH were stalling until the sun rule was lifted, Great Job SSUSA.
Dec. 5, 2016
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
I agree totally with SSUSA and Bballer3. We played twice with it in effect and both times was worse than just playing regular. The mat is skeejawed and hard to hit. In St. George the pitcher was pitching from about 15 feet right of third base. The fielders had no idea where to play. As a left handed batter, I turned to bat as normal against the pitcher and pulled a ball-straight over the mound for a single. If I had hit a ball to the right fielder, it normally would have been 75 feet foul. Right handed batters had to go either up the middle or to the opposite field, or the ball went foul. It was a rule with good intentions that just didn't work.
Dec. 5, 2016
#19
Men's 70
302 posts
Yes, Chief144, I have pitched and I have been hit ... If you're a pitcher, it's part of the game ... If you can't field your position, try another one ... Waterboy?
Dec. 5, 2016
NYGNYY
137 posts
I will agree with the decision of the committee however I believe each tournament direct should do their best to try and use fields in which the sun has as little of a factor on either the pitcher or hitter. I am not asking for the fielders just the pitcher or hitter.
Dec. 5, 2016
HAT MAN
Men's 40
210 posts
My Take,
I have done both, pitched and batted with sun issues. I look at it as its part of the game. In a quick review of just posts on this site going back 9 months no one mentions for or against the sun rule. A 13 to 0 vote to change the rule with no rebuttal from anyone says a majority opinion to me. Having a pitcher move to the sun is like having your pitcher throw the ball where you want it when in a HR derby.
I feel that the push to change or this case not change "for Safety" is getting out of control. If more of your focus is safety this and safety that maybe its time to hang it up. Playing nervous or dare i say scared is a recipe for injury. Not trying to challenge anyone here or their manhood just feel the batters sun rule should never have been a rule. Just like sometimes you get the bad park, or the bad ump, or the wind blowing in its the luck of the draw. Spending more time on rule just changed days ago isn't going to go anywhere. As an umpire i am glad this was taken away, one less challenge from teams/coaches to get an advantage.
Dec. 5, 2016
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2861 posts
NYGNYY ... I attempt to avoid "sun fields" when we have the field availability to do so, most notably when brackets slim down to two fields or single-file on Championship Thursday/Sunday ... Individual field directors have the authority to do so if I missed it on the initial schedule ... Prior to that, field availability as measured against games demand most times does not allow that luxury ... Most players voice opposition to playing later in the evening or at night, which is the practical result of creating holes in the schedule to let fields be open based on sun position ...

From the SSUSA side of it, most lessors charge us by the hour for usage from first game of the day through the last, including times for seeding breaks, open game slots, etc. ... The only exceptions are Big League Dreams sites, which imposes a flat rate per game played ... Too many "blanks" we have to pay for could have the result of higher entry fees to cover the cost of this change in scheduling philosophy and efficiency ...

Dec. 5, 2016
NYGNYY
137 posts
Dave thanks for your feedback and once again no issues with what was said---all I asked was that the directors do their best. Not looking to add expense or additional time.
Dec. 5, 2016
nickname36
57 posts
YOU WANT SOME CHEESE WITH THAT WINE??......

Pitching and batting is part of playing the game and has always been since day one no matter where the sun
is and no matter what direction the wind is blowing from, SO GET OVER IT!!!!!

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE SUN OR WIND THEN DON'T PITCH OR DON'T HIT, ITS PRETTY SIMPLE. NOBODY IS
MAKING YOU PLAY, YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY SO GROW A PAIR AND GO OUT AND PLAY ITS THE SAME FOR
BOTH TEAMS. EVER HEARD OF ADAPTING TO THE CONDITIONS, OR ARE YOU ALL A BUNCH OF "HILLARY'S?

REMEMBER NOBODY'S MAKING YOU WINERS PITCH OR HIT.....
Dec. 7, 2016
Mulewhipper
Men's 55
128 posts
Nickname...why so many CAPS?

isn't HEAT part of the game as well?
Dec. 7, 2016
Snot Nose Kid
67 posts


nickname36 is so tough that he plays in the wind, rain, sleet, snow, lightning storms, hurricanes, tornadoes, haboobs, earthquakes at midnight in the dark with no lights.

Even broken bones won't stop him...

And he won't wine about it!



Dec. 7, 2016
Omar Khayyam
1329 posts
I admire nickname36 and his commitment to softball. However, in playing on various teams for more than sixty years, I have never had enough teammates with that bravado to continue in the following conditions:
1. Lightning strikes within a mile. Ump suspended the game. What a wussy!
2. Wind blowing so hard the pitcher could not depend on a strike. Ump said he would only call strikes. Violation of rules!
3. Setting sun not just low, but directly behind batter. Ump allowed suspension until sun set. Wimpy!
4. Sleet storm hits the field making footing treacherous and TD cancelled rest of tournament. Not fair!
5. Heavy rains meant running in the mud and water. After the third player took a bad fall, TD canceled the day's games. Sissy!
6. Power went out for evening game and field was dark. Rec department canceled rest of games. Taking advantage of our fees!

Nope, in all of those situations I had no one on the team disagree with the powers-that-be. They always agreed it was the wise move. Why don't my teammates know that "pitching and batting is part of the game...so if you don't like it...grow a pair." That aside, I have briefly played in hard wind, low sun, sleet storm, and heavy rain. That's when I was young and foolish (except I was old and foolish playing in the sleet). Too bad 95% of the players are "winers" and not committed enough to the game, even at the risk of their safety.
Dec. 7, 2016
Shut Up & Pitch
67 posts

Word is he screams and yells at his team mates and the opposing team players if they leave the field due to adverse conditions....



Dec. 9, 2016
nickname36
57 posts
Hey there OMAR THE CAMEL JOCKEY.....
Never said anything about about playing in lighting storms, sleet, heavy rain, and no power. If you play in those conditions "your the man".... "Grow a pair" and play in the sun and wind. Obviously you never played or pitched which I did many times in vegas at arroyo grande when the wind was blowing down from the connivance store down on to the field on the southwest field. Fly balls would go straight up in the infield behind the pitcher and blow back sometimes over the backstop. The outfielders adjusted and played 20/30 feet behind the infielders, the batters that knew and could adjust to the wind just hit the ball down and hard in the infield holes. The ego power hitters which there was many would still just try to hit it over the outfielders heads and then wine about the wind when the ball blew back and the pitcher or catcher caught it.. "ITS ALL ABOUT ADJUSTING".... Pitched and batted in many games in vegas and other cities with the sun in our eyes, "ITS ALL ABOUT ADJUSTING"......

Hey WHIPPER SNAPPER....
Vegas and phx are two cities you need to adjust to the heat in the summer, its part of the game, "ITS ALL ABOUT ADJUSTING" as for the caps, the button was stuck, but who cares or do you feel I was yelling at you, "GROW A PAIR" and get over it, I wasn't....

Hey there BIG NOSE KID....
I was only talking about the sun and wind I agree with you on the rest about not playing. I did play in a haboo in phx about 10 years ago, we were at victory lane on field 3, again it was its "ALL ABOUT ADJUSTING"....

Whats going on SHUT UP & BITCH.....
You should practice what your profile name says or are you guy that does the screaming. I've never complained about adverse conditions. All I ever said was learn to play in the sun and wind, "GROW A PAIR" and "ITS ALL ABOUT ADJUSTING"


Dec. 9, 2016
bond_171513
Men's 55
64 posts
nickname:

Here are "some" of your direct quotes:

"And your right I do take personal responsibility for my health and well being because its obvious the tournament directors don't give a damn about it and make the right decision. PLAY BALL!!!!!!! If you need me i'll be in the air conditioning inside the snack bar watching.."

"At what temps would senior softball call off a tournament in Texas, Arizona and Nevada, and possibly southern California, or would the almighty dollar out weigh peoples health and lives and well being?"

But yet you say to Whipper Snapper "you need to adjust to the heat in summer"? Are you for or against player safety? It is hard to tell.

If you are indeed worried about health and well being then you would understand why some would argue against the pitcher being blinded by the sun. It is a health and well being issue. We may not all agree on the Sun Rule and/or the removing of same, but I think we are all concerned about safety.
Dec. 9, 2016
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2861 posts
It could be a pretty dangerous place at the ball park if any of these "anonymous keyboard courage" cowboys were, say, only about 10% as tough as they think they are! ... Hilarious!!!
Dec. 9, 2016
mad dog
Men's 65
4174 posts
hey nickname glad to see your a dumpster fan...as you sound like him...guess your gonna make senior softball great again....but hey you pitch with the sun in your eyes and barely can see the plate or for that matter the batter.....and see how long it takes for you to bitch......but hey your the man........


omar don't even bother....he doesn't care....

no dave...its not that they are tough...more like dumb for wanting to play in dangerous conditions....
Dec. 10, 2016
?
121 posts
If dumbname36 is as tough as he acts on this thread.

Then why is he wasting his time playing Slow-Pitch Senior Softball with all these "Sissy Sun Rules"?















Dec. 14, 2016
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1221 posts
Hey Dickname36 talk about growing a pair... Look at your post crying about the fields to Dave.. OMG if your AAA ass is going to talk the talk.. then you better walk the walk!

Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: Vegas 50's Fields

Its about time other teams and people are to seeing the problem 50AAA is facing year after year after year in vegas spring and winter. Shadow Rock and hollywood need to be retired for the list of fields used by senior softball.

Thank you:
* Gonedeep43
* gott2play
* softball4b
* deep14
* fofo

Just checked 60's have 37 teams and 50's have 27 teams,

Where are you Dave McDowell I'd love to here your excuse's...
Dec. 14, 2016
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2861 posts
swing ... Is that the same 50-AAA division that played at BLD in the World Masters a couple months back? ... Yeah, I thought so, too! ...
Dec. 15, 2016
boston
Men's 60
351 posts
I cannot believe at our age people are still questioning our manhood and trying to prove how tough they are. Many of us have participated in competitive sports at a high level for many years. Some of us were fortunate enough to play in college others went on to amatuer and professional ranks. I remember the days playing hockey from ages 12-21 w/o a helmet & getting several concussions, knocked out teeth broken noses but continued on. How about the days we played HS football and the concussion protocal was if the coach put up 2 fingers u saw 3. They said close enough get out there. Baseball w/o batting helmets that was always fun. Basketball cutting across the middle and having a big man elbow u in the nose or someone undercut you going to the basket. I'm sure these are all memories many have experienced if they played any of these sports. One more experience I had in my 50's was racing BMX bikes with my kids. I started at 50 quit by age 53 suffering 6 concussions, seperated left shoulder, broken ribs, nerve damage, sciatica injury and getting my groin impaled on handle bars. I have always played with a reckless abandon. Just this past Worlds in Vegas I crashed into a wall at BLD (not the 1st wall or fence I've crashed into)and separated my right shoulder and suffered another concussion at the ripe age of 62 playing 55AAA. I'm not fully recovered yet but when I am and go back to the outfield forgive me for pulling up short and thinking of my health. If that's whiney or wimpy "So Be It". With all that said the sun in your eyes while hitting is not a safety issue. Glad the rule is gone. I have played in several of those games in SSUSA and USSSA. Just get up there and have at it. One time I tried swinging the bat with one hand while my other I used my cap to shield the sun. Webbie hope your feeling better than the last time I saw you. Win, lose, rain, snow, wind or sun we all know the beer will taste good at the end of the day and tourney.

"Stay Thirsty My Friends"
Tony Mitchell
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