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Discussion: 1-1 count and new ball

Posted Discussion
April 5, 2018
garyheifner
603 posts
1-1 count and new ball
As U all have seen over the years, I am in favor of the 1-1 count at all age groups.

Question, for those of U who have used the 1-1 count in the younger age groups this year so far: Any impressions about it?

2nd-if U have played with the new ball talked about a few months back-any impressions?
April 9, 2018
txnighttrain
95 posts
The 1-1 count produced more Base on Balls due to the windy conditions. We still had one game only go 6 innings. Our Team had 50 Base on Balls over 9 games. One player had 10 and he doesn't get the many usually in a season. Last year we usually went 7 innings in most of our games. We usually don't make it 7 innings in two or three for the whole year. I liked the old way better. Pitchers could be more refined on pitching instead of serving up meat pitches. The new ball hasn't showed up yet.
April 9, 2018
txnighttrain
95 posts
If people like 1-1, then they should go play USSSA. If SSUSA wants to become like another organization, then I am starting to hear the golf course calling my name. What speeds up the game is the run limits per inning. If you take that away, 7 innings will become a dream.
April 10, 2018
r4pitch
78 posts
As a pitcher the 1-1 count does not make you throw meat ..It speeds the game up ..makes hitters not wait for a strike .They have to be ready ..Much better game ..we did not play one game to 7 innings last year 50major+ except championship games..Lot more action and all around better game with 1-1 tx windy conditions made more walks always does .....Reid Miller team usa
April 10, 2018
E-BOMB
1 posts
This guy ^^^^^^ put it perfectly.
April 11, 2018
OZ40
536 posts
'makes hitters not wait for a strike'

Sadly, that kinda says it all right there.....I doubt the Genie will go back in the bottle after this season....

So far out of the 7 tournaments we have scheduled this year, only 2 are SSUSA.
April 11, 2018
Jawood
Men's 50
926 posts
First tournament, five games played, five games went 7 innings! Used the old Trump ball, apparently the new ones still haven't arrived.
April 11, 2018
Crusher23
Men's 55
47 posts
OZ, you are spot on again. Some people just don't get it...
April 11, 2018
OZ40
536 posts
Crusher, it just makes sense to me. If hitters are dominating the game they'd be putting up 5 x 6 + open inning = at least 30 runs a game....if I'm spending 2-3 hundred bucks for a bat, and especially if it's a close game, I would like the option to relax and be comfortable in the box, maybe take a pitch in lieu of possibly a better one. I want my team to be my top priority, not speeding up the game for the next team waiting to play. As teams we all pay just as much entry fee and just as much hotel costs, just as much gas costs, food cost & travel time as any other team. Why players accept the hurry up and get the hell back home thanks for your money don't the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out treatment is beyond me. Oh well, JMO
April 11, 2018
The Screamer5
65 posts
We get it gentlemen, you are not in favor of the starting with a 1-1 count. No offense my senior brothers but complaining about it isn't going to help because its here for at least this year. Try your best to give it a chance. After one year, if what you're saying is true for most senior players, it will probably be changed back to 0-0. For me as an umpire, I think I like it because it will possibly allow the batter to put the ball in play sooner which means we may get more game "action" in the allotted time. (I don't think its main intent is to speed the game up but if it does, what's wrong with that?) As a player, it doesn't really matter. I will try to be more ready to hit when I first step in the box this year. (I normally always take a strike before swinging...but I'll just have to make the adjustment this year.) In the end, Its still underhanded, slow pitch softball. I don't know how much more comfortable or relaxed I need to be in the box. I just don't think its that serious a change to our game. Time will tell. Just my opinion.
April 11, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2861 posts
No opinion here (because the only opinion that counts is that of the National Rules Committee in late November), just a factual update of sorts ... For the Spring World's (Mesquite/St. George), the Spring National's (Polk County, FL) and the Texas State Championships, the percentage of games playing the full 7-innings in the allotted time under the 1-1 count was in excess of 98% ...
April 11, 2018
k man
Men's 65
292 posts
Dave, to really be able to compare, what % went the full 7 innings for those tournaments last season?

I also agree with S5 in that the intent is to get in the full 7 innings, not speed up the game.
April 11, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2861 posts
k man ... We wouldn't have a definitive answer on last year's data, but with a high degree of confidence, it was a percentage significantly lower (however you may wish to define that phrase) than the same events for the current year ... The T.D. in Florida is "..almost certain.." his number was 100%, same for the Texas T.D., and the Mesquite T.D. says he "..doesn't remember seeing a game that went less than seven, but it's possible maybe one or two might have.." ...
April 12, 2018
OZ40
536 posts
The Screamer5: 'Complaining' is a word you choose to use. I prefer outspoken critic. Correct, I do not like the 1-1 start but I didn't bring it up in this thread but when it does come up I'll surely comment on it and will continue to do so at least until SSUSA decides to pull a Facebook/Zuckerberg move and ban me. Just as you voice your opinion I can voice mine.
April 12, 2018
The Screamer5
65 posts
OZ40. I apologize if you took offense to my post. Certainly didn't mean any disrespect. A message board is nothing but our opinions. (Nothing more/nothing less.) No one here said you weren't entitled to yours. On this topic, the only opinion that really counts is the National Rules Committee and they have spoken. My suggestion was only to try to give it a chance. My opinion here again, but being negative about something you can't change can only negatively impact you. Don't let the change effect your play or your attitude towards SSUSA as a whole. Let it go my brother. Good luck this season!
April 12, 2018
PoollShark
Men's 50
88 posts
As a pitcher I like the rule, I think it speeds up the game.

As a hitter I like it as well, I'm there to hit, not take pitches.

If you need to take a pitch to get comfortable that is something I don't get, I go into the box looking to swing at the first good pitch I see. I don't take pitches(unless the pitcher is struggling then I'll be a team player). Taking pitches just to take pitches is what drags the game out, we're throwing you pitches UNDERHAND, swing the bat.
April 12, 2018
r4pitch
78 posts
poollshark well said..
April 12, 2018
mck71
217 posts
And there we go, "speeds up the game" (just not a fan of those words, sorry)

My opinion: I understand the benefit as a pitcher, some batters will swing at more pitches rather than "take a pitch". As a hitter, I don't "need" to take a pitch, but I do take a lot. I look at each specific at bat and decide where I would like to hit (backside, 6 hole, swing away) and that drives my decision on what to swing at. Now that I am giving 1 pitch back it COULD change that approach but since it's the rule (you are ABSOLUTELY correct TS5), I will change my approach a little but doesn't mean I have to like it!

Also, as an old guy I have to admit I am not a fan of change, it's a "me" thing that I am trying to work on, at least my wife keeps telling me as much! LOL

Good luck to all, have fun and stay healthy!

April 12, 2018
PoollShark
Men's 50
88 posts
Just to clarify, when I say "speed up the game" I don't mean the amount of time it takes to complete a game. I mean that it speeds up the action within the game. We've all seen the guys that won't swing till they have 2 strikes and a lot that won't swing till they at least one. This gets them swinging and keeps the game flowing faster IMHO.
April 12, 2018
OZ40
536 posts
Screamer, no offense taken. Pooll Shark, I'm there to hit, we all are, I can't believe you don't take pitches, if you were at bat I'd roll the ball to you if that was the case. I just happen to enjoy pitch selection as opposed to Russian Roulette.
April 13, 2018
Crusher23
Men's 55
47 posts
HEAR, HEAR OZ40! Crusher, it just makes sense to me. If hitters are dominating the game they'd be putting up 5 x 6 + open inning = at least 30 runs a game....if I'm spending 2-3 hundred bucks for a bat, and especially if it's a close game, I would like the option to relax and be comfortable in the box, maybe take a pitch in lieu of possibly a better one. I want my team to be my top priority, not speeding up the game for the next team waiting to play. As teams we all pay just as much entry fee and just as much hotel costs, just as much gas costs, food cost & travel time as any other team. Why players accept the hurry up and get the hell back home thanks for your money don't the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out treatment is beyond me. Oh well, JMO
April 13, 2018
OZ40
536 posts
I guess I'm just out of the loop here Crusher23. Everyday, everywhere, rush, rush, rush. Heck, even on some of the roads around here now the speed limit has been raised to 75. In Michigan that means if you're doing 75 you better have a ramp on the back of your car so people can pass you....Remember how the internet and smart phones were supposed to be a big help? Shoot, all they do is allow you to do twice the work (multitasking) and up your stress level or they just speed you along quicker to the next job. Sheesh, I didn't retire to be urged along faster. As life goes I'd hate to be just starting out now in this day and age, I'm somewhat glad I'm in the checkout line but hopefully at the rear of it!
April 14, 2018
PoollShark
Men's 50
88 posts
OZ40, just let me know in advance if you're going to roll it so I can bring my driver to the plate ;-)
April 14, 2018
OZ40
536 posts
I'm pretty good at golf except for the windmill and the alligator, those two give me trouble!
April 15, 2018
DCPete
380 posts
No way you can handle the clown's mouth . . .
April 15, 2018
OZ40
536 posts
C'mon, that's a simple straight incline shot, the games are won and lost on the timing holes! I was on a team once where at every tourney we traveled to we found a miniature golf course nearby and played a round, yes, occasionally a bet was laid down...good times.
April 15, 2018
maskedman
Men's 55
42 posts
the worst thing about the 1-1 in younger ball is the umpire.if he makes a bad strike call you are pretty much screwed but with the strike mat which i absolutely love, and courtesy foul id think there would be no problem.
April 15, 2018
Wes
Men's 65
333 posts
I'm just an old guy who can remember what REAL softball/baseball was like.

1.If you want speed up the game, and I do know why you would, you can do
away with third base and just have everyone just run to second.

2. If you want to play seven innings you just do away with the clock.

3. Or you could have the umpires enforce the runner rule. I play in
two age levels and play one or more tournaments a month and I know that
we spend at leased a total of one innings, both teams, per game waiting
for--- one the coach to decide if he is going to put in a runner
Two if does wants to he then has to find someone to run
Three then they have to get him out of the bathroom or he's over
talking to his other half
Fourth
Fifth
Wes
April 15, 2018
Wes
Men's 65
333 posts
I do NOT know why you would to
April 15, 2018
ChiPrimeMarty
Men's 60
97 posts
I've been playing ASA park district ball with a 1-1 count since 1985, and 2018 will be my 12th year in the Senior game. I haven't been compiling data, but on average I'm pretty sure more pitches are taken per at bat with the 0-0 count.

Most of us still playing at this age love to hit. We step to the plate with the intent of unleashing some fury on that slow pitched ball. But we're also smart enough to swing at a good pitch to hit. Odds are the chance to get that cookie is increased with a 0-0 count and we are more likely to wait for it if we have a safety cushion after taking a first strike.

Seeing more pitches equals longer at bats and getting that cookie to hit can increase offensive production, resulting in more at bats per inning.

That isn't necessarily good or bad and my own observations here could be mistaken, but that's how I see the difference between 0-0 and 1-1 in terms of time spent taking pitches and possible impact on the game.

Since games are limited by time, I'd rather spend less of it watching the catcher throw the ball back to the pitcher. Also, It's such a hitter's game already that I don't mind giving a slight edge to the pitcher if he can hit the corner with his first pitch.

Your Mileage May Vary
April 16, 2018
mad dog
Men's 65
4174 posts
wow....hitters....hitters ...hitters.....hardly anything said about the pitchers....but have a pitcher throw it a tiny bit high and the batters go nuts....also on the low pitch.....how about letting the pitcher do something on the mound besides just toss it up to ya to see how far ya can hit it...let them juke and such..let them go higher than 12'..hell thats basically a flat pitch compared to the old days........batters don't like being in the box....what about the pitchers ...let them roam where they want out there .....and than the best thing i hear is they can't play with the 52-300 ball b/c they can't hit it 400'...poor batters......last i knew most all fences are 300'....we are using the hottest combo for most all the assoc's out there....why......like taking your 45 to paintball....
April 17, 2018
OZ40
536 posts
True enough, having the mat delineates the length and width of the strike zone, even so if the umpire calls a moonshot or a worm burner for a strike the batter gets screwed, but of course, we all know pitchers never try to get an advantage, right? So more or less as the batter you are basically forced to hit the first strike even if you can't push or pull it to the correct field. Why? Because if the pitcher gets the first strike no matter how borderline it may be you can bet the next one is going to be borderline high or low and your option is hopefully hit it foul. Mad dog, don't underestimate the pitchers we have in senior ball, they've been around and practicing their craft as long as anyone.
April 17, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2861 posts
Mark, we have a lot of very talented pitchers across all age groups ... mad dog is certainly one of them ... "Monkey Joe" Bush frustrated batters and umpires for years in the northeast with up/down, left/right, short/deep ... Joe "einstein" Rinaldi could be un-hittable at times ... I watched Mike Clary lose a perfect game with two outs in the bottom of the 7th via an error, to settle for a no-hitter, in a 40-Masters game ... The better pitchers will do just fine, as will anyone who puts in the practice to improve ... The "1-1 count" implementation at 60's and younger seems (so far) to be working to maximize innings played in the allotted time and the competitive nature of the games hasn't declined in our view ...

April 17, 2018
marcster13
94 posts
It will be fun to read these comments if and when the other groups go to 1-1 with NO foul like we use in 40's. You have it made having one foul. Enjoy it! As a pull hitter, I prefer one foul but I must admit it does have me learning more patience and going middle/right side a bit. This may not be good on the pitchers health though since I see many others going middle much more often too.
April 18, 2018
r4pitch
78 posts
So oz what about the batters Standing in front of plate ..No way can stay in box. Rolled/ shaved bats...hottest bats and balls in softball. pitchers have calls go both ways ...1-1 makes the playing field a little more fair..To win championships you need to be able to play all sides of the game
April 18, 2018
OZ40
536 posts
Out of the box is a discretionary call and not all batters stand in front of the plate but all hitters are effected by 1-1. Likewise, not all batters use rolled or shaved bats and I'm all for policing that better. By saying the 1-1 makes the game fair is to insinuate that for the last thousand years of softball the game hasn't been fair. I don't think that's the case and the argument perpetuated on this forum isn't fairness, it was to speed up the game/action. To that I say unless previously every batter took the count full (which we know isn't the case) the difference is minimal but the 1-1 can be very impactful on the game.
April 18, 2018
txnighttrain
95 posts
I umpire USSSA. When they got rid of the courtesy foul, more guys went up the middle. Some pitchers have even been carted off to the hospital. USSSA then had to change to the middle rule. If a line drive hit the pitcher in the pitching area, it is an out. 2nd offense is a player ejection and 3rd is a forfeit. Needless to say, balls hit at the pitcher decreased. As soon as a few pitchers ride off in an ambulance because of more middle hits, expect this rule to change. Until then I am glad I am not on the mound. I think it is mostly major and major plus guys that want this 1-1. They rarely got in 7. AA and AAA usually get in 7. In the games we won at the Texas State Championships, we averaged 24 runs a game. We made it to the championship game through the losers bracket only to run out of gas. That game went 7 automatically and wish we could have finished with less at that point in the tournament. I can adapt to the 1-1, but I liked senior ball for it's slower pace. Maybe if more people contributed to the survey, things would have been different. For now, I will live with it, because it is the rule.













April 19, 2018
r4pitch
78 posts
oz you said the pitcher gets 1 st strike then a moon ball .. pitchers taking advantage..my point hitters are cheating all the time. you want full count also..out of the box is only called in vegas...you got the hottest bats and balls ..but you want more..25 years we have been playing 1-1 in young mans game..no problems ...we could go back to when you had unlimited fouls in 70s we would get 3 innings in....
April 19, 2018
OZ40
536 posts
No, I said umpire calls moonshot or worm burner then alluded to that as a first strike. Again so to say this (1-1) makes it fair means you are in essence saying the game has been unfair to pitchers ever since rules came into play, on that I call BS. txnighttrain makes some good points as I too used to ump U-trip (and play it) during the change.
April 20, 2018
titanhd
Men's 50
570 posts
Played 2 games today at SW championship. neither game went 7 innings
April 20, 2018
titanhd
Men's 50
570 posts
I will say that the wind had a lot to do with it. Lots of walks and the umpires are still allowing pitches between inning and "infeild" practice.Not to mention the time that it takes for the Pitcher to strap on all of their gear. This just to say that there are a lot more varibles to getting in seven ining than the Pitch count (1-1). Adddng to this btw is 7 runs per inning as opposed to 5.
April 21, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 65
713 posts
Just a question...........can the pitcher throw more strikes and less balls with a 0-0 count in very windy conditions? Why complain when there is nothing you can do about it in the first place.
April 21, 2018
SRoe44
1 posts
Most umpires are not qualified or good enough to handle a 1-1 count and not effect the game adversely with their inability to know the 6-12 arc rule.u
April 21, 2018
B.J.
713 posts
SRoe.. lol... I find it just the opposite.. most players do not know the 6-12 arc especially on the 12ft side.. For what ever reason the higher the team is ranked the more they expect the strike zone to be lower as in 10 ft.
April 21, 2018
OZ40
536 posts
You can always tell which umpires played the game and which didn't. When I was umping U-Trip I rarely called a ten foot strike, especially early in the game. Because the pitchers would stretch that 10 footer and complain when they didn't get the over 10'footer, also because you'd have that guy in the field yelling in, "you called that one on me, both ways ump".

QUESTION: Has the new ball made an appearance in the tourneys yet?
April 22, 2018
Big00al
Men's 65
2 posts
Im 65 and hope we never get that rule. When I got out of the Navy in 73 we used to have infield before the games for both teams in Modesto City league. Why would you want to play if all you care about is to hurry up and get home.( just stay home) Our league games are cut down to 55 minutes. Cant we just have the time to play the game as intended and not have to hurry up about everything. Now some leagues are adding nets to protect pitchers and 1 and 1 counts. How long before we will need a new name for this game that looks a lot like softball maybe we can call it speedball to get the umpires home faster and the tournament over as fast as possible. We had a trial with 1-1 in our league and the board voted it down 9 to 4. Its hard to believe a majority of players voted for this.
April 22, 2018
JTeleven
10 posts
OZ40..I have been reading your posts regarding the recent implementation of the 1-1 count and on behalf of our WOMEN'S team we would just like to say that we agree with you completely. While everyone is entitled to their opinion and personal preference, your points are certainly valid, in particular, "Especially if it's a close game, I would like the option to relax and be comfortable in the box, maybe take a pitch in lieu of possibly a better one. I want my team to be my top priority, not speeding up the game for the next team waiting to play. As teams we all pay just as much entry fee and just as much hotel costs, just as much gas costs, food cost & travel time as any other team. Why players accept the hurry up and get the hell back home thanks for your money don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out treatment is beyond me." From one of your prior posts, I see that you are from Michigan. We too are from the north with typically non-complying-weather so just about every tournament is a plane ticket. Without question, a plane ticket well worth it to continue to play the game we all love but this certainly makes certain changes such as this one, "to speed up the game/action" much more apparent.
April 22, 2018
OZ40
536 posts
JTeleven, thanks, I just call them as I see them. Why is it always the stuff we like always seems to speed up? Fast-softball, slow-dentist. Fast-summer, slow-winter.

Big00al: I feel ya! Some genius down the line will probably come up with an app for the Smart(?)Phone and everyone can stay home and play the game with their devices.
April 23, 2018
tc4whlr
31 posts
I find you guys that whine about the height of the pitch and the 1-1 count entertaining. This summer will be my 38th yr of unlimited 1-1 count ball. A groove ball is 20-25 ft high and if they get an early strike on you it only goes higher. We learned early on how to guard the dish and taking a pitch was only done when the pitcher was really struggling. So knowing I only get 2 cracks at a 10 ft instead of 3 doesn't really bother me it makes me smile. Love the game and remember as our dads told us it could be worse :)
April 23, 2018
OZ40
536 posts
tc4whlr: That was my whole end game as it pertains to all my posts; keeping you entertained. I've played softball in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 2000, 2010, 2018, some 1-1 but mostly full count. So you are in essence saying that since you've played 1-1 for 38 years with unlimited arc, (a totally different game) that somehow allows you to pontificate from on high to us underlings....fantastic, go right ahead. I'll keep 'whining' as you say, (I say advocating) for my version of the game all the while taking a modicum of solace in the fact that if nothing else I'm at least keeping you entertained.
April 23, 2018
The Screamer5
65 posts
I know we've dragged this topic out plenty enough... but I'm just curious. What exactly is the reason for the resistance to starting with a 1 - 1 count? Is a just tradition? (I can understand that.) Is it a reluctance to CHANGE? Do you think your hitting will suffer or your team's success hangs in the balance? Do you suddenly feel less comfortable in the box when the count is 1 - 1? Do you feel the pitcher is in any more eminent danger when the count is 1 - 1 than he or she is when starting 0 - 0? To me the pitcher is always vulnerable regardless of the count. (My experience is a team is more apt to go up the middle when they are out of HRs, not simply starting with a 1 - 1 count). Is it you think the game will be somehow sped up? The game is still 55, 60, 65 minutes then a buffet so the game time limit is still in affect. So I don't believe the new rule was put in place to get you off the field any quicker. I honestly think the rule was changed to get the batter to swing a little earlier than he would've normally, thus increasing the amount of "game action" in the allotted amount time. If that's the outcome, I don't see anything wrong with that. I believe mck71 put it best in this thread...he doesn't like the new change but he will make the adjustments. Gentlemen, try to make the necessary adjustments. Good luck this season...!!!
April 24, 2018
OZ40
536 posts
I've laid out my reasons plenty of times and they are researchable on this forum. In a nut shell you probably could have added an "all of the above" as reasons (and maybe a few more) to your post. For the record, I've not started any of the recent 1-1 posts but by that same token I won't back away from commenting when it is brought up. Those of you that think this doesn't change the game are in my opinion off base.
April 24, 2018
The Screamer5
65 posts
OZ40, you're free to comment (hopefully respectfully) on any subject at any time you wish, just like everyone else. Please don't take it so personal. We simply disagree on this topic, which is okay. I believe any changes to the game will be minimal. (Just my opinion) You just can't be as patient/selective as a hitter. That's a major change for me as I almost always take a strike before swinging... so I will definitely have to change my approach by being completely ready when I step in the box and put a good swing on the first good pitch I see. Hopefully you're also able to adjust to the new rule for this year. Something tells me you will be just fine.
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